Dreamers and Stalkers

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Jaforidza		#21	[url]	[-]
Posts: 53 04/30/09 11:13 AM	Would you explain me the difference between the Ap of Dreamers and Stalkers . For example is it truth that the Ap of a person who is a Dreamer is harder to be moved than the AP of a Stalker? And what happens to it when it finally moves to a new place ?Also, what is the practical use of knowing that you are a Dreamer or a Stalker?Could you tell me the basic differences in training of Dreamers and Stalkers, what they should or should not do to their Ap and what techniques should they do as a Dreamer or a Stalker.. I read books but i am not shure if i got that righ from them.
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dreamways		#22	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/01/09 2:44 PM Outlaw	Jaforidza wrote: Would you explain me the difference between the Ap of Dreamers and Stalkers . For example is it truth that the Ap of a person who is a Dreamer is harder to be moved than the AP of a Stalker? And what happens to it when it finally moves to a new place ? Also, what is the practical use of knowing that you are a Dreamer or a Stalker? Could you tell me the basic differences in training of Dreamers and Stalkers, what they should or should not do to their Ap and what techniques should they do as a Dreamer or a Stalker.. I read books but i am not sure if i got that right from them. Where did you get the idea about a dreamer's AP being harder to move? Since Stalkers are good at fixing their AP in one position, it seems like they would be the tough one. The biggest difference between Dreamers and Stalkers is that Dreamers take on a "lifestyle" whereas Stalkers do not. So, let's say, if a Dreamer is a Doctor, they would do their best to act like a "Doctor." Dreamers like to set the mood for things, but Stalkers don't pay any attention to that. Sometimes, Stalkers make better lucid dreamers than Dreamers because they are less distracted by the dream. Dreamers are like the engine in a car and Stalkers are like the brakes. I don't have any suggestions on "training" differences, I personally use the book, "The Art of Dreaming" as my main guide, even though I am a Stalker. The book by Taisha Abelar, "The Sorcerers Crossing" is also very useful in my opinion. "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/
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dreamways	Organic Dreamers	#23	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/01/09 9:00 PM Outlaw	As a Stalker, I find that I appreciate the art and music that is produced by Dreamers, I prefer it because it sort of balances me out. Here is some music from a friend of mine who is not only a Dreamer, but, if you pardon my inventing new terminology on the fly, an "Organic Dreamer." "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/ Last Edited By: dreamways 05/01/09 9:06 PM. Edited 1 time.
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DreamingWarrior		#24	[url]	[-]
Posts: 31 05/02/09 12:46 AM	Without Nagual being present, who would you rather suggest to be in charge in dreaming together, a dreamer or a stalker? Can stalker handle dreamer`s loose shifts, if dreamer invites a stalker in his "room of awareness"?
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dreamways		#25	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/02/09 8:59 AM Outlaw	DreamingWarrior wrote: Without Nagual being present, who would you rather suggest to be in charge in dreaming together, a dreamer or a stalker? Can stalker handle dreamer`s loose shifts, if dreamer invites a stalker in his "room of awareness"? Good question. I suppose that if a dreamer and a stalker were on the same page about what to do, were both disciplined and sober, yes they could do some dreaming together. Don't forget the existence of double-beings, they may not be naguals, but they do bring alot of horsepower to the table. I think that each group would have to be manually balanced out, in the case of either some of the dreamers or stalkers being being too strong. I know that the rule involves having more dreamers in a group than stalkers, and that a natural born stalker could be tapped for dreaming instead, so that is something to consider. My guess is that having more dreaming power than stopping power, in a group, is because they maybe want to travel further somehow. I'll be honest about something that I tried when I was younger and healthier, I actually invited a small group of double-beings to a dinner party, just to see what would happen. The result was that they all went off on their own direction even more than before, it did not inspire any unity whatsoever. I also had a "Castaneda Club" even earlier than that, with 50 members who would casually get together on weekends. That large group of mixed energy was way more orderly and magical, so I think that you need a little bit of everything to keep the vibe right. At the moment, I think that the greatest chance of success would be gained if a group of sorcerers had a strong inorganic component in place, not so much as a direction but just as a solid pillar of awareness, because this is the most elusive kind of energy for humans to understand. Finally, the group would have to stick to the basics and be patient, it ain't a McDonaald's drive thru. The group has to be in agreement about doing the simple things like recapitulation, stopping the internal dialog and looking for your hands in dreaming. The group has to focus on that foundation as a whole, before moving on to other things. So, to answer your question, "would anybody be in charge?" Sure, you could have a non-nagual head things up, as long as everybody understood that they were not a nagual, either a dreamer or a stalker could be a good leader, it has more to do with their personality and past experience in leadership roles. You might want to have all prospective leaders fill review a leadership assessment checklist such as this one: http://www.nsba.org/sbot/toolkit/leadSA.html "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/
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Jaforidza		#26	[url]	[-]
Posts: 53 05/04/09 2:45 PM	I have a book where I write down some sentences from Castaneda's books, that seem impotrant to me, or seem important for the understanding of things i am interested in(one of them is the difference between the Dreamers and the Stalkers) So there is one, that i am wondering about : "The stalking moves the AP very little but permanent " didn't read the books in English so i am not sure how this sentence sounds in the original .especially when the word "permanent" is in question. Cause in my language the word permanent could also mean often, frequently..(i guess that is where i came up with the idea about the Stalker's AP being easier to move, which i am pretty much sure now that isn't truth..(thanks for the reply to my first question on this forum ) ) So ..would you tell me what is the meaning of this sentence, and also the meaning of the opposite sentence..the one for the way the dreaming moves the AP.Why is it so? why does stalking move AP "very little" and dreaming does the opposite?(of course if i got right the meaning of the translation to my language and if the translation is good.
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dreamways		#27	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/04/09 6:50 PM Outlaw	Jaforidza wrote: I have a book where I write down some sentences from Castaneda's books, that seem impotrant to me, or seem important for the understanding of things i am interested in(one of them is the difference between the Dreamers and the Stalkers) So there is one, that i am wondering about : "The stalking moves the AP very little but permanent " didn't read the books in English so i am not sure how this sentence sounds in the original .especially when the word "permanent" is in question. Cause in my language the word permanent could also mean often, frequently..(i guess that is where i came up with the idea about the Stalker's AP being easier to move, which i am pretty much sure now that isn't truth..(thanks for the reply to my first question on this forum ) ) So ..would you tell me what is the meaning of this sentence, and also the meaning of the opposite sentence..the one for the way the dreaming moves the AP.Why is it so? why does stalking move AP "very little" and dreaming does the opposite?(of course if i got right the meaning of the translation to my language and if the translation is good. OK, this is actually very simple. Moving the Assemblage Point is called Dreaming. Fixing the Assemblage Point, stopping it on one spot, is called Stalking. Move=Dream. Stop=Stalk. It's like when a hunter is stalking a deer, they have to keep very still, in one spot. "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/
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dreamways	Update	#28	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/04/09 7:16 PM Outlaw	The original program "Helix," which I used to create the database, as well as all the other software that I used for the project, was all run on a pre-System 10 Macintosh. So, it is a bit of a problem getting access to any of it on a modern day PC, much worse than I had anticipated. We haven't even been able to read the text documents. I had no idea they changed Macs so much in the past ten years. Anyway, I'm in the process of getting it worked out. "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/
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Jaforidza		#29	[url]	[-]
Posts: 53 05/05/09 6:10 AM	So if a Stalker is often better in dreaming in sense that he can keep his AP in the new place better than Dreamers, what are the good sides of being a Dreamer then? for example ..is it truth that that the AP standing firm in a new place(Stalkers talent) results in more vivid , more colorful dreams, dreams that are more like "reality" in sense that you fell things like smell and touch ? So if that is so, what would be a result of using that talent Dreamers have?
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dreamways		#30	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/05/09 7:19 AM Outlaw	Jaforidza wrote: So if a Stalker is often better in dreaming in sense that he can keep his AP in the new place better than Dreamers, what are the good sides of being a Dreamer then? for example ..is it truth that that the AP standing firm in a new place(Stalkers talent) results in more vivid , more colorful dreams, dreams that are more like "reality" in sense that you fell things like smell and touch ? So if that is so, what would be a result of using that talent Dreamers have? As a Stalker that does alot of dreaming, and who has friends who are Dreamers, my experience has been that Dreamers have many more lucid dreams than Stalkers, maybe as much as 5 to 1. So, Dreamers are more likely to Dream at any given moment, even when they are awake. Dreamers dream so much, they probably don't even know that they are dreaming-awake most times, as it just seems normal to them. Stalkers are more likely to exploit a dreaming opportunity, since they have less useful dreaming time to work with. Dreamers have a much greater potential to master dreaming, but, as with other talents that people have, they tend not to take advantage of it and just goof off. So, you can find Stalkers that are better dreamers than Dreamers simply because they work much harder at it. Lack of discipline doesn't just keep sorcerers from reaching great heights, but everyone else too, nobody gets self control without self discipline. "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/
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alcyone		#31	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 05/14/09 5:16 PM	now I am both?
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dreamways		#32	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/14/09 9:27 PM Outlaw	alcyone wrote: now I am both? No, you are just one or the other. This exercise is meant to help you strengthen your self-knowledge from a linear perspective. When things in sorcery, or any other endeavor, get fuzzy, I suggest taking a computer or math class to help get your focus back. This whole thread is about left-brain linear analysis, what operates in the Tonal, it should never be abandoned. Sorcery functions when the nagual rules the tonal, its more than just right-brain guiding the left-brain, but it is definitely the right-brain that is more in tune with the nagual. "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/ Last Edited By: dreamways 05/20/09 7:08 AM. Edited 1 time.
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ARNWAY		#33	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 05/20/09 12:57 AM	Interesting Dreamways, these questions help people isolate their focus of the character of there being and by doing so they can concentrate on there discipline of intent of the path that is the feature that they adapted. When considering my categorization of character of my path and method as a warrior I get really stumped trying to figure out where I fit in the above categories that you outlined. The dilemma that I have is that I stalk in my dreams no different than in normal tonal waking hours and find my self the center of attention most of the time while in normal awareness but soon I'm quiet and just observing but found I am brazen while dreaming or quiet depending on circumstance. It appears that I'm 1-2-3-4 but I will check by looking in my pants while looking at my compass. LOL Good question and most definitely is good reminder to get with your true approach of alignment of ones personal path as a warrior.
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dreamways		#34	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/20/09 7:01 AM Outlaw	ARNWAY wrote: Good question and most definitely is good reminder to get with your true approach of alignment of ones personal path as a warrior. It can help in some ways, especially giving somebody a frame of reference, but as to what you do with the knowledge of being either a dreamer or a stalker, that is entirely up to you. That's why it is more important to just be able to focus on what you are by default, not because it defines a path for you but because it shows you how linear thinking can be utilized in sorcery, it shows you the connection. Dreamers can do stalking and Stalkers can do dreaming, it doesn't matter at all. But, if you don't know what you are, that is a problem, it doesn't help anyone to not understand themselves. "The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." "To fly into other realms, to see energy, to forge the energy body, et cetera, et cetera, is another matter. For those maneuvers, sorcerers need loads of dark, alien energy. They take it from the inorganic beings' world by the mere act of going to that world. All the sorcerers of our line have to do this." --Don Juan Matus http://nagual.yuku.com/
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mothsdream	crossing predilections	#35	[url]	[-]
Posts: 68 05/26/09 12:17 PM	is there any "recommended" way to begin working with your not-so-inherent qualities? in other words, is there any particular way a dreamer would set him or herself about stalking, and vice versa? - or is the only way to intend it?
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dreamways		#36	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 05/28/09 11:35 PM Outlaw	mothsdream wrote: is there any "recommended" way to begin working with your not-so-inherent qualities? in other words, is there any particular way a dreamer would set him or herself about stalking, and vice versa? - or is the only way to intend it? Plain old recapitulation, as described in Taisha Abelar's book, "The Sorcerer's Crossing," is the most effective way to improve your ability to fix your assemblage point, which is "stalking." Making an effort, 24/7, to not talk to yourself is the easiest way to move your assemblage point, which is "dreaming." Dreaming is the "gas pedal" and Stalking is the "brake." "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." --Don Juan Matus Subscribe to Nagual Last Edited By: dreamways 06/26/09 10:08 AM. Edited 1 time.
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bluedreamer.sorcery		#37	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23 07/03/09 12:33 AM	dreamways wrote: Where did you get the idea about a dreamer's AP being harder to move? Since Stalkers are good at fixing their AP in one position, it seems like they would be the tough one. The biggest difference between Dreamers and Stalkers is that Dreamers take on a "lifestyle" whereas Stalkers do not. So, let's say, if a Dreamer is a Doctor, they would do their best to act like a "Doctor." Dreamers like to set the mood for things, but Stalkers don't pay any attention to that. Sometimes, Stalkers make better lucid dreamers than Dreamers because they are less distracted by the dream. Dreamers are like the engine in a car and Stalkers are like the brakes. I don't have any suggestions on "training" differences, I personally use the book, "The Art of Dreaming" as my main guide, even though I am a Stalker. The book by Taisha Abelar, "The Sorcerers Crossing" is also very useful in my opinion. I think i am both a stalker and a dreamer, I don't take on a lifestyle, i don't set the mood for things but i could get distracted by the dream and be like a car engine(sometimes brakes). I have a man and a woman in my core, i have always been a tomboy and i am a nurturer as well. I am a woman. for my female side i would choose quiet authority and that would make me a stalker; for my male i would pick quiet athority and that is dreamer.I'm more of a quiet joker but i enjoy performance too. There have been a few times when i was loud authority but quiet is dominant. I must say, I am inexperienced in naugualism and it's language, my understanding is always changing. I need to learn and experience more of stalking and dreaming. I am both interested in and skeptical of personality type classification systems. In the past i was more interested, as I age I find my experience is less amendable to extrenal models. There is something in me that resists pinning down. I'll keep this in mind and come back to it, don't know who I am just starting to learn what I'm not, my internal dialogue has been discredited but still constantly re-assemembles, my nose is on it's trail calling it false. Is that stalking?
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dreamways		#38	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 07/03/09 11:21 PM Outlaw	bluedreamer wrote: I think i am both a stalker and a dreamer, I don't take on a lifestyle, i don't set the mood for things but i could get distracted by the dream and be like a car engine(sometimes brakes). I have a man and a woman in my core, i have always been a tomboy and i am a nurturer as well. I am a woman. for my female side i would choose quiet authority and that would make me a stalker; for my male i would pick quiet athority and that is dreamer.I'm more of a quiet joker but i enjoy performance too. There have been a few times when i was loud authority but quiet is dominant. I must say, I am inexperienced in naugualism and it's language, my understanding is always changing. I need to learn and experience more of stalking and dreaming. I am both interested in and skeptical of personality type classification systems. In the past i was more interested, as I age I find my experience is less amendable to extrenal models. There is something in me that resists pinning down. I'll keep this in mind and come back to it, don't know who I am just starting to learn what I'm not, my internal dialogue has been discredited but still constantly re-assemembles, my nose is on it's trail calling it false. Is that stalking? Work on seeing energy in dreaming, this is what its all about, that's where you will see yourself and everything else for what they really are. "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." --Don Juan Matus Subscribe to Nagual
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bluedreamer.sorcery		#39	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23 07/04/09 10:41 AM	dreamways wrote: bluedreamer wrote: I think i am both a stalker and a dreamer, I don't take on a lifestyle, i don't set the mood for things but i could get distracted by the dream and be like a car engine(sometimes brakes). I have a man and a woman in my core, i have always been a tomboy and i am a nurturer as well. I am a woman. for my female side i would choose quiet authority and that would make me a stalker; for my male i would pick quiet athority and that is dreamer.I'm more of a quiet joker but i enjoy performance too. There have been a few times when i was loud authority but quiet is dominant. I must say, I am inexperienced in naugualism and it's language, my understanding is always changing. I need to learn and experience more of stalking and dreaming. I am both interested in and skeptical of personality type classification systems. In the past i was more interested, as I age I find my experience is less amendable to extrenal models. There is something in me that resists pinning down. I'll keep this in mind and come back to it, don't know who I am just starting to learn what I'm not, my internal dialogue has been discredited but still constantly re-assemembles, my nose is on it's trail calling it false. Is that stalking? Work on seeing energy in dreaming, this is what its all about, that's where you will see yourself and everything else for what they really are. At this point I get lucid but usually cant intend it, just happens sometimes. So when I get better at...what might energy look like? and anything else you want to add for inexperienced dreamers? Compared to a time in my past when I lots of dreams, remebered them easily, could go back to a dream if I woke up I feel blocked. Thanks dreamways
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dreamways		#40	[url]	[-]
Posts: 895 07/09/09 6:57 AM Outlaw	bluedreamer wrote: At this point I get lucid but usually cant intend it, just happens sometimes. So when I get better at...what might energy look like? and anything else you want to add for inexperienced dreamers? Compared to a time in my past when I lots of dreams, remembered them easily, could go back to a dream if I woke up I feel blocked. Thanks dreamways Energy can appear several different ways, it can look like filaments of light, like a translucent egg, a vortex of color or even a glow. There's something in us that feels it too, so, it helps you know which dreams are real. For the beginning dreamer, returning to a dream after waking up briefly is not uncommon, but it is usually the doing of inorganic beings and their representatives, that's a signature move for them. Sometimes we find ourselves in very "unreal" worlds in dreaming, because of their appearance, but they are solid and steady, so, it can really be amazing to return to them over and over again. "The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers." --Don Juan Matus Subscribe to Nagual Last Edited By: dreamways 09/24/09 2:18 PM. Edited 2 times.
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